Regarding Prostitutes, Pimps and Johns

Reader Zara found a stack of these fliers on her doorstep the other day, near 20th and SVN. “Report prostitutes, pimps and johns every time you see them,” it instructs. Looks like an effort to clean things up is underway. I like the typography.

Click photo to view larger.

127 Responses to “Regarding Prostitutes, Pimps and Johns”

  1. zinzin says:

    yes, please do call every time you see them.

    that would be swell.

    it’s anonymous and effective.

    • I don’t think neighbors should be spying on each other.

      • zinzin says:

        generally speaking, the pimps, hos & johns we see on our blocks are not from the hood.

        that said, i’ll tell the ones on my block they’d be welcome on yours. works for me.

      • SFDoggy says:

        Right because the true moral imperative of our time is “Don’t Snitch”; You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

      • @SFDoogy – “You’re either part of the problem or part of the solution.”

        Not really. Most people do illegal things everyday: drinking beer in Dolores Park, rolling their bikes through stop signs, smoking pot etc. Do you want to live in a world were people are encouraged to spy on their neighbors?

      • zinzin says:

        dude, seriously?

        reporting pimps & drug dealers is “spying on your neighbors”?

        sounds like a bunch of juvenile bullshit to me. grow the fuck up.

        there’s a big difference between “drinking beer in Dolores Park, rolling their bikes through stop signs, smoking pot” and activities that create real danger for folks in the hood.

      • @zinzin “sounds like a bunch of juvenile bullshit to me. grow the fuck up”

        That’s a pretty weak response to a valid concern. You forget that SF attempted to pass a referendum legalizing these activities this past fall–clearly some people support sex-workers. However, I do not believe it is difficult to argue against these activities from an ethical ground; that said, it is just a slippery slope of what is to come in a society in which the police use nice typography to try and sell spying on your neighbors.

        Yes, I am not claiming that beer drinking, bike riding or pot smoking is as ethically abhorrent as prostitution; but we do not need to live in a society in which we fear that someone will call the police every time we do something questionably wrong. One could easily make the argument that drug dealing causes just as much harm to society in terms of violence, forced-labor and loss of production as prostitution, so why don’t you call the police every time you see someone light a joint? Because the related violence is not right in your face? That’s lame.

        I would also like to state that I have never seen violence in front of my face due to prostitution and, believe me, there is a lot of prostitution going on a few blocks down the street from your residence as well. Maybe you have had some wildly different experiences than I have, but I doubt it. I suspect you just have a different opinion of what is wrong and what is not and, subsequently, believe that the government should tell people what they can and cannot do.

      • mattymatt says:

        Is it “spying on your neighbors” if they’re doing it out in the middle of the street? And aren’t actually your neighbors?

      • fix capp says:

        The illegal prostitution happening in this area of the Mission is not a case of right/wrong or morals or “spying on your neighbors.” It is a incontrovertible case of public safety, public nuisance and health hazards.

        Fact: Prostitutes attract johns, who end up harassing non-sex workers (i.e. females who live in the neighborhood walking alone), making them feel unsafe.

        Fact: Pimps are violent. Many are convicted felons who are often armed. I have personally seen them physically and verbally assaulting their girls.

        Fact: Being awakened nightly at 2am by yelling pimps or loud talking girls, not to mention hearing heels clacking up and down the street all night, is really starting to piss me off. Many people who live in the neighborhood have day jobs (including myself) and need a decent night’s sleep.

        Fact: Finding used condoms on my stoop, side-alley and front sidewalk almost DAILY is not only disgusting, it’s also a health hazard.

        Fact: The pimps and prostitutes are NOT FROM OUR NEIGHBORHOOD. Neither are the johns. They come from all around the Bay Area, mostly from cities that actually prosecute people for engaging in sexual acts on the streets. So when you say people are “spying on their neighbors,” you are just wrong.

        And if there is a referendum that proposes testing, taxing, zoning and confining prostitution to non-residential areas, and not a carte blanche “decriminalization” of the behavior described above, I will vote for it. Until then I will keep fighting to make the neighborhood safe for people who live here.

    • Ercell says:

      Yes and while you are at it. Please report all homeless and tear families apart and oh yeah let’s work not to eradicate poverty.

      This is a stupid effort on a none of no life having business. What business is of mine yours or theirs.
      I am so tired of seeing money spent on none of your business crimes and less on what really is important.

      • Sol says:

        Ercell is right. And these people, these sex workers are in fact your neighbors. It may be difficult for you to accept but it is true. Where are you getting information to the contrary? Is it just too difficult to imagine that a sex worker could be making enough to live alongside you?

        Trust me, there are tons of sex workers all over the mission from various aspects of the industry and we will not support this effort to persecute our sisters.

    • Megan says:

      WTF!! Let’s see what makes more sense here. Allowing a girl (or boy) to engage in consensual sex in exchange for money so that one can pay their bills, or arrest the person and have the government (your tax dollars [which are getting even more scarce, and our taxes keep getting increased - ie. the recent sales tax increase here in the city]) pay for the sex workers housing (jails) and food, etc.

      Get real and get a life. You should be concentrating on your own issues, and not spying on and snitching on your neighbors. After all, didn’t your mommy tell you to not be a tattle tale?

      Shame on you, and shame on those who raised you to snitch on your neighbors.

      • zinzin says:

        @ ercell and megan, there’s no way to respond to your posts.

        it’s unfortunate that all you can come up with is name calling and a very familiar sounding “progressive”/judgmental tone.

      • Megan says:

        There is no way for you to reply, because you can offer nothing to reply. Read the comments carefully, there is no name calling on my part, just facts. Putting people in jail for trying to make a living, is wrong. Here are some more facts, only 15% of sex workers, ply their trade on the streets. Only a fraction of those are managed by pimps. The comments above perpetuate a stereotype that all pimps are violent ex-felons. The reality is quite different. Although there are always going to be violent persons out there, and those that commit violence against others should be put away. If you see this, I encourage you to grab your camera, phone, or whatever, take photos, and report the matter to police. But to categorize all street based sex workers as being abused by pimps, strung out on drugs, and engaging in unprotected sex, is wrong and not supported by the evidence.

        Sex workers in San Francisco are some of the safest sex workers in the world. Safer sex supplies are available everywhere: bars, clubs, clinics, etc. This is supported by the evidence.

        The suggestions that all the sex workers in your neighborhood are from out of town is not supported by the evidence either. While there are undoubtedly some sex workers that travel from out of town to work in the city, this is not true of all sex workers. The comments that suggest otherwise are not based on fact, but based on a perpetuated stereotype.

        Do you research before making unsupported allegations and categorizing people. More importantly, please stop perpetuating disinformation.

      • Sol says:

        @ Fix Capp

        Gotta also say that the click-clack of heels that comes from the yuppies going to Beauty Bar, Medjool, and all the other bars in the neigborhood as well as their drunken yelling really bugs me sometimes and keeps me up at night too. I don’t call the cops on them though cause it is just part of the neighborhood. They are also for sure not *all* my neighbors.

        The bridge and tunnel night life crowd are a health and safety risk and public issue more than the sex workers in the hood in my opinion. Vomit on the streets, drunk couple’s arguments, drunk driving, loud drunk women laughing talking loudly and yelling, drunk men hitting on me when I am walking alone. All a huge problem too, much more so as they are by far coming to our neighborhood in bigger mobs, larger numbers, than sex workers!

    • Megan says:

      I just called this number, and was directed to the SFPD Mission Station. I spoke to a Sergeant there and found out that SFPD DID NOT put out this flyer. It was put out by some anonymous person. I have several people canvasing the area to determine where the flyers were printed. We will narrow this down. It appears that there is someone out there littering our neighborhood with these papers. Littering is a crime, with severe civil penalties. So we will get to the bottom of this.

    • Starchild says:

      Please only call to report an *individual* when that particular *individual* is being violent, committing a serious property crime, or engaging in repeated littering, noise, or other “nuisance” behavior and refusing repeated polite and respectful requests to stop.

      Otherwise by calling the cops you’re only feeding the cycle of aggression and disrespect.

  2. mattymatt says:

    The typography really is amazing. I doubt this is something produced by the SFPD.

  3. Stucco-sux says:

    I just saw Daly, Avalos and Campos all on the same day and in the same general area. The many boo’s didn’t seem to phase them. Its tough ridding a town of pimps & ho’s.

    • zinzin says:

      aint it the truth.

    • mcas says:

      You are saying that there were boos, as in sounds of discontent… while these 3 supervisors were walking down the street? I’m going to call bullshit, since most folks in this city don’t know who they are, especially by face.

      …and as to your second point, please elaborate why you are choosing to blame 2 folks who have been in office for less than 6 months (one of which who serves on the public safety commission), when the police chief serves at the will of the Mayor and the majority of the Police Commission are appointed by the Mayor, as well.

      If you are referring to the current budget fight, 1) the SFPD is still operating on last years budget, of which only one of the people you reference were elected when that budget was proposed (by the mayor) and approved (probably with Daly dissenting); 2) isn’t implemented until July 1st, so you can’t blame anything in the past/today on Avalos’ proposals; 3) the proposal doesn’t cut the SFPD any more than other public safety organization, which are the number one way to PREVENT people getting on the street to do illegal activities, rather than cutting prevention and then increasing the police force to arrest folks who can’t afford mental health, deny them drug rehab, prevent folks from getting education on housing rights to allow for predatory lending and abusive landlords, and kill social services to prevent young women and men from becoming victims of pimps, which is what Gavin is proposing…


      • zinzin says:

        well, i can’t respond for Stucco-sux, but for myself, when he inferred that Daly, Campos and Avalos might be construed as a “pimp” or a “ho”, i agreed because all three of them are blow-hard “progressive” politicos more interested in soap-boxing their hollow ideology (using SF as a stage for their sophomoric play-games) than solving actual issues facing the vast majority of folks in SF.

        i’m not defending the mayor, or blaming these monkeys for the budget. (though i will say that having freshman Avalos in charge of the process seems really stupid).

        what i will say is, the “advocacy” ecosystem via which the important services you mention are provided is corrupt – it’s an industrial complex worth over a billion dollars primarily focused on perpetuation of its own existence – there are over 50 “advocacy” groups in the mission alone -

        and that corruption starts with the “progressive” board.

        their “progresive” grand-standing does nothing but perpetuate – i would say worsen – the issues we have. the current advocacy effort in SF simply doesn’t work, because it’s been corrupted by politics and money.

        homeless advocacy begets more homeless.
        addiction outreach begets the SROs on 16th & mission.
        rent control & tenant rights advocacy begets a seemingly ever-smaller ratio of affordable units, and a clearly hostile landscape for property owners (i know mcas is an expert on this point).

        this isn’t my opinion. just look around you. i may be wrong on some specific point, but i think we can see all of this actually happening.

        the mayor is ineffectual, agreed.
        the budget is a travesty, agreed.

        these services are a critical component, agreed. but so are cops & firemen.

        the board of supervisors, though…gosh, they don’t seem any more engaged than the mayor regarding solving real problems….only in advancing their own careers and using SF as a stage for their soap-boxing & political machinations.

        it’s funny, there’s very little difference…past what flavor of bullshit-flavored wind they blow in our faces as they race for their next office, or serve their lobbying concerns.

        politics is politics, regardless of the specific bent. that said, the “progressives” couch theirs – justify theirs – in a crooked and false notion that they’re actually out to help the disenfranchised. that’s the real rub. because it’s a lie.

    • Ercell says:

      Yes and what are you doing for humanity?
      What do you know…I mean really about sex workers. It’s easy to look down at people. Tell me do you have a life and what is you do?


    • Sol says:

      Whores will always be around, they contribute a lot to the city and the neighborhood- whether or not you see it.

      • Starchild says:

        This is true! In our city’s glorious past, when San Francisco acquired the sobriquet “The City That Knows How!”, prostitutes had a much greater civic role.

        For instance, there were Saturday parades down Market Street, and sex workers trooped down the aisles to special seats in the theater on Sundays. People took civic pride in the city’s beauties. There were colorful personalities, like the Chinese prostitute Ah Toy of Waverly Place, and society matrons looked to the local courtesans to set the standard for the latest chic fashions.

        How did we lose that freewheeling Gold Rush spirit and get to be as relatively uptight as a city as we are today?

  4. mcas says:

    Well thought out and said, whether or not I agree– but I still think your concepts of social services = perpetuation of poverty holds any water at all. Do some of these organizations not achieve their mission? Yes. Do some of these groups spend time fighting for their continued existence? Yes- because every June, they are the first to get cut.

    But, if you are thinking that it’s 100% the fault of MDC, MEDA, Mission SRO, and all the other acronymed groups that there is still crime/poverty/homelessness, that’s obviously not a fair judgement. They are underfunded– and it’s not their job to stop/prevent all drug use/homelessness. Their job is to reduce the levels, and I’m sure that they could provide you with numbers and facts of their successes to counter your blanket ‘complete failure/perpetuation’ perspective.

    I still don’t get the boo’s comment as pimp/ho– boo means girlfriend to me… I thought he meant sounds of disapproval, so I may be completely OT…

    • zinzin says:

      yes, i agree. good points as always.

      my issue is less with the individual orgs themselves – many do good work and are successful, or well meaning at least – than with the corrupt system driven by the corrupt BoS and their hollow lying rhetoric.

      so it’s not the advocacy that = perpetuation of poverty.

      it’s the CORRUPTION of advocacy that = perpetuation of poverty.

      and this corruption is driven by the lies of people like Daly, Campos and Avalos.

      point is, once “advocacy” becomes “politics” – and advantage of the advocates becomes more important than the plight of the people in need – it begins to stink like 16th & capp on a hot summer day.

      and it’s not even funny that the disenfranchised people for whom these “advocates” purport to “advocate” are the ones that get the short end of the stick…

      while David Campos is photographed grinning like a buffoon and an anti-American Apparel rally, while Chris Daly does his usual Rush Limbaugh-like act, and while Avalos strokes his goatee and makes like he’s some kind of elder statesman when he’s actually a junior admin with no real-life experience whatsoever.

  5. zinzin says:

    @kevmo – i don’t see why you’re spinning this up into some commentary regarding “what is to come of society”.

    this isn’t sociology class or the Ted Conference, dude, it’s real life.

    here’s a fact: pimps & hard drug dealers on our blocks create a dangerous situation in a family neighborhood (which is where we live…the mission is a family neighborhood).

    in my mind, this point is not “questionable”. this not about legal technicalities or philosophical arguments on “society”….it’s about danger in our hood. plain & simple. tactical. and serious as a heart attack. or, you know, a shooting.

    you may not see the danger, or you may not want to see it…but it’s there. we have folks on our block who have been harassed and attacked by pimps & crack dealers both. we have teenage girls on our block who can’t go to the corner to buy a soda at 9pm because they will get cruised by pimps & johns both. we have pimps with guns up & down our blocks all night long…or camped out in our driveways – in a van – doing business – showing a gun to the resident peeking out at them.

    so you can SAY it’s not dangerous, and you may THINK it’s not dangerous, but that don’t make it so.

    also, first you say you’re NOT equating pimps & dealers with stop-signs & joint smoking (“Yes, I am not claiming that beer drinking, bike riding or pot smoking is as ethically abhorrent as prostitution”), and then you ask me why i don’t call the cops when i see someone smoking a joint (“so why don’t you call the police every time you see someone light a joint?”).

    i don’t get your argument at all…past the fact that you have some desire to make lofty comments about “society”, and you have some sort of issue with authority.

    for me its simple: is the shit dangerous on my block?

    stop-signs and joint smoking? no.
    pimps & hard drug dealers? yes.

    (also, what makes you so sure the cops made those flyers?)

    • carleigh says:

      Thank you. That is eloquently put. I get cruised 6 times out of 10 while walking my dog after dark. Further, if you recall, my partner was hit by a car the other day crossing the street. (he’s blind, the jerk hit him in the crosswalk at 6:30 in the morning and drove off without a ward). I know who is out the streets at that early hour, and while it’s one thing to say good morning to my corner prostitute, it’s another when the neighborhood is frighteningly unsafe. This isn’t gentrification, it’s about respect. I was delighted to see the flyers.

  6. zinzin says:

    oh, and btw, i am 100% in favor of LEGALIZATION of prostitution (and drug use). just give me a plan, some guidelines. look at amsterdam. look at nevada for pete’s sake.

    Prop K was a misguided “progressive” stunt that almost passed – and (imho) it would have created a VAST increase in trafficking and degradation of women.

    most of these women aren’t saving up their sheckels and jonesing to go into the ho business for themselves. they’re people in need of help, and at the mercy of their pimps 8 out of 10 times.

    Prop K was a joke, written by former strippers and $1000 / hour call girls…not the poor underage kids walking our blocks.

    But i’d vote (and lobbby) for a rational plan for legalization.

  7. meave says:

    Legalizing prostitution isn’t going to help women. How is legalizing abuse of women a positive thing? Maybe decriminalizing prostituting oneself, but pimps should never be allowed near women again.

    The drug trade isn’t “victimless” either, you know. Look at what has happened in Colombia and Mexico–you can’t blame all that on drugs being illegal. I wouldn’t advocate calling the police on my friends and neighbors who use drugs, but on dealers? Yes. It’s so exploitative, from poor people in rural areas who grow plants to the neighborhoods where dealers take over the blocks, it’s horrific. I mean, do whatever to your body, but be aware of what you’re contributing to.

    This isn’t about Big Brother fucking watching Us. That’s such a reductive point of view. Or should I say, libertarian.

    • 26th Street says:

      Prostitution is the oldest profession on earth (along with LITIGATING) and Ishtar (the “Whore of Babylon”) was a prostitute. Every single Babylonian woman was expected to prostitute herself at Ishtar’s temple at least one time (I think that they would give the money to the temple of Ishtar).
      These days, we have all types, including professional dommes, FBSM practitioners, high end escorts, GFE girls, and streetwalkers. People only started getting down on prostitutes first when the church took over EVERYTHING and fucked with women and all non-procreative sex, and then later when hos started to widely spread disease due to lack of a good prophylactic. Streetwalkers are victimized when they can’t protect themselves. And why can’t they protect themselves? Out of fear for the law. Someone who gets raped while working can’t go to the police, and someone who rapes prostitutes can rape people who aren’t prostitutes. Prostitutes are easy victims- they stay silent. Obviously this is going to have an effect on criminal activity on Capp.
      Instead of trying to save your own ass by disposing of sex workers, why don’t you try to protect them? It would have the same effect on your own safety. Besides, people need prostitutes. They are absolutely vital to the mental health and sexual freedom of much of our population. We need to have more respect for people who do this work.

    • Sol says:

      Prostitution does not equal abuse.

    • Starchild says:

      Meave – What has happened in Columbia and Mexico is very much a result of drugs being illegal. Where do you get the idea that it isn’t? The violence there is not about desperate addicts committing crimes in order to get money for their fixes — it is about gangs of drug producers and distributors and with the governments trying to stop their trade. That is what happens when you criminalize something that a lot of people want and are willing to pay good money for.

      And how is making it illegal to choose what to put into your own body, or providing people with stuff they voluntarily choose to put into their own bodies, *not* about Big Brother? Call it a “reductive point of view” if you want to, I say it reduces the bullshit and boils all the rhetoric down to the basic reality of the situation, which is as follows: Either you get the final say on what you voluntarily do with your own time, money, body, and property, or government does.

      When government is allowed to make personal, intimate decisions in your life like that for you, it sounds pretty damned Big Brother to me.

      • Starchild says:

        Oops, left out a couple words there — meant to say “it is about gangs of drug producers and distributors warring with each other and with the governments trying to stop their trade.”

  8. 26th Street says:

    One more thing-
    REPORT PIMPS!!!!!! Pimps suck.
    Support independent sex work.

    • zinzin says:

      support independent sex work with a legitimizing plan that allows sex workers the benefits of proper organization & protection…

      that takes the needs of both sex workers and their neighbors into account….

      and ensures that pimps are out of the equation for good.


    • Sol says:

      Pimps suck… So do gallery owners, and modeling agents- big wholesale produce distributers that drive down prices for local farmers, and the owners of sweat-shop factories where women get paid pennies to produce clothing sold for hundreds of dollars. Capitalism is what it is- why make life harder for women who are working with pimps. Sure they totally suck but trying to draw these lines in an industry that you may not have experienced or know little about. The last thing that is needed is more judgment and more stigma.

      Making more options available is one way to make things better for sex workers. Sex workers being afraid of their neighbors and afraid of the cops only encourages them to team up with pimps more.

  9. zinzin says:

    @allan – pretty much. (is it “hoes”?) in my neck of the hood, it looks to me like all the women on the street are trucked in by pimps (sometimes from as far as reno, apparently), and are under their charge.

    i’m thinking (and meave may disagree) that some sort of actual look-it-in-the-eye-it’s-the-oldest-profession-it’s-not-going-away plan may allow for women who want to be in this business to be in it in a safe and organized way. works in nevada. works in amsterdam.

    red light district. mandatory std testing. access to health care & services. women-owned businesses. room for free-lancers. etc…you know…organized…like grown-ups do.

    i’d vote for it.

    • Sol says:

      The Nevada and Amsterdam systems are not ideal. They require the women to basically be pimped by the state, and at least in Nevada it is impossible for them to work independently.

      If you are really for independent sex worker’s rights think about decriminalization and an end to persecution. This would allow sex workers to more freely seek worker’s rights, healthcare, and better working conditions for themselves.

  10. 26th Street says:

    There is an occupational health and safety clinic in SF that supports sex workers exclusively. Unfortunately they aren’t getting the money they need to run their services, and I’m sure the state budget cuts are going to drive them down even harder. It is the only clinic of its kind in the US, maybe the world? Not sure.

  11. zinzin says:

    if it is the only one, it would be in sf, no doubt.

    what is the name of it?

    • eviloars says:

      There is an organization called SAGE ( that does great work.

      And just to put my own two cents in: much of the activity we see on the street and call “prostitution” is also called “child sexual slavery”. Recently I’ve learned a little bit about where a lot of these women come from, and I’ve started calling it the latter. Overall, sexual slavery is estimated to be a 2 billion dollar a year enterprise worldwide, and it is very active along the western coast of the US.

      • Megan says:

        Sage profits of the criminalization of women. When a girl accepts SAGE, she has to pay $1000, and SAGE keeps a third, and the remaining two thirds get split between the District Attorney and the SFPD. This is complete bs. That place should be torched. It serves no legitimate purpose other than to victimize women.

        Sage offers no real services, no job counseling, no job training, no nothing. (Oh, they offer acupuncture). It is just a vehicle that was created after the SFPD were arresting prostitutes, and then requiring the arrested girls to pay a fine directly to the Vice Sergeant. To this day, those funds have still not been fully accounted for. Victimizing women because they engage in consensual sex is wrong.

      • eviloars says:

        Wow. There are a number of things I find issue with in your response. But I have a feeling that we won’t be able to come to an agreement about this.

        I don’t know what your experience with SAGE has been, but from what I have seen, much of what you say is incorrect. Or at least a gross generalization. Many of the people I have talked to, or heard speak, through SAGE were already victims of sexual slavery before SAGE was ever involved.

        Look up Norma Hotaling’s story. She was the founder.

    • Lynae says:

      @zinzin: It doesn’t look like you got a reply to this one. The facility is called the St. James Infirmary.

  12. zinzin says:

    @megan – you know, you’re really jumping to conclusions, and speaking in generalities. i am talking in specifics…specifically what happens in front of my house every fucking night.

    no one here – least of all me – has it out for sex workers. i think sex work should be legal. legitimate. organized.

    i am 100% in favor of sex work. i LOVE sex workers. i can count more than a few – current and former – as friends, both men and women (and transgender).

    but the sex work situation in our neighborhood is creates an unsafe environ for our community, and i simply will not stand for it, regardless of my overall feelings, and regardless of the needs of the sex workers.

    this is not up for debate, the unsafe part. and i am not talking about unsafe sex. i am talking about unsafe to walk down the street.

    everything i know is based not in the textbook facts you offer up (which are swell), but in what i see here in the hood, in real life. here’s what i know from walking my dog every night from 12 – 2am:

    100% of the women working my block are african-american. 100%. not 75% not 90%. 100%. there is no african-american community of any size in the mission (that i know about) that would drive this number of women onto our blocks every night. so, i have to assume that these folks are decidedly NOT my neighbors. i don’t know about the rest of the city. here in the mission, these folks are commuting from somewhere. (mission cops will tell you the same.)

    100% of the women walking our blocks come with pimps. 100%. not 75% not 90%. 100%. i haven’t chatted with any of the pimps, but i think it’s safe to assume they’re not such nice guys. in turn, i think it’s safe to assume that pimps on the block create an unsafe environ for our families.

    100% of the women walking our block attract johns. on a given friday night, one can see literally dozens of cars circling our blocks. while many of these johns may be swell guys, i think it’s safe to assume many of them are not. quite often they’re intoxicated. quite often they harass women that live on our blocks who are not sex workers. quite often these women are in fact very young girls. again, i think it’s safe to assert that dozens of cars filled with johns on the block create an unsafe environ for our families.

    this is just a slice – there are many more facets of the negative situation created in our community – but this is what we’ve got going on in our block.

    my comments here are not – in any way – an indictment of sex work. i am 100% supportive of sex work, and would happily strive to find a way to legitimize it… certainly would be about fucking time (like 10,000 years).

    but as it exists on my block, it’s not a good thing. and no amount of factual data about sex work in general changes that.

    • Megan says:

      Wow!! I had no clue that not one African American person lives in the mission. Is that by design, or is the neighborhood “just like that”? And wow, I didn’t know that every black female in your community came with a pimp. Is this something the girls told you, or is this is something that you “assume” as you repeatedly state in your comment? You also “assume” that my facts are based on some text book. But guess what, these facts were published by our wonderful San Francisco government. I am very familiar with the prostitution issue in the city, and I too see it on a daily basis, but as a female who lives literally on the corner of Post & Larkin (a prostitution hotbed) I am not harassed by the “Johns”. Of course the boys will look, and sometimes ask, but if I decline their offer, does not mean that I am harassed.

      You also state that the so called “johns” are driving around your neighborhood drunk or high. Guess what, it is against the law to drive under the influence of a drug or alcohol. Your solution is to snitch on the girls trying to earn a living. How about reporting those drivers who are under the influence, driving around a deadly weapon?

      You claim to be in favor of sex workers on one side of the mouth (and even purport to claim sex workers as your so called “friends”,) but from the other side of your mouth, you urge people to snitch on your friends. Some kind of friend you are.

      Your little snapshot of the community is simply wrong. Perhaps we as a community need to start investigating why there are no African American women living in your community. Did you run them out?

      • zinzin says:

        like i said, it’s impossible to respond to your comments.

        just one example: i didn’t say there’s no black people in the mission, or that every black female is a sex worker. i said there isn’t a large enough black community in the mission to drive that many black women onto our blocks, and so i’m assuming they’re from somewhere else. that’s all i said.

        i didn’t make any judgements, about them or you. it’s more than you can say for yourself.

        but whatever.

        (now i will judge you….since that seems to be your thing)

        you go ahead and live in your “progressive” lala land where the only response to someone that doesn’t agree with you is judgmental hysteria, and a complete ignoring of dialog.

        i tried to engage rationally.

        i should have known better.

        you should give David Campos a ring. or chris daly. or john avalos. i’m sure you’d have plenty to chat about….though of course you’ll all be talking at the same time, staring straight ahead, not making eye contact.

      • mattymatt says:

        I think we can all agree that it sucks when young girls can’t walk down the street without getting propositioned; when people find used condoms on their steps; and when creeps with firearms are patrolling the street. Right?

        Obviously, the best solution is for a sane policy on prostitution. (Mandatory testing, legal protection, social services, etc.) But that hasn’t happened yet. So, until it does, what other way is there to mitigate those problems than by calling the cops? Sure, it makes life hard for sex workers; but they opted in to that line of work, while the people in the neighborhood never asked for it.

        I guess it all comes down to which you think is worse: propositioning, condoms, and violence; or inconveniencing sex workers.

    • Sol says:

      If you are 100% in support of sex work you should stop right now and do what you can in your own corner of the city and world to de-stigmatize sex work and end the persecution of sex workers.

      If it is a problem on your street consider alternative ways of dealing with it rather than calling the cops. Calling the cops is an act of violence against sex workers as they are often if not always mistreated by them.

      Brainstorm with your neighbors about nonviolent ways of dealing with whatever you consider the problem to be. Don’t contribute to the violent persecution and stigmatization of sex workers.

      • Sol says:

        “I guess it all comes down to which you think is worse: propositioning, condoms, and violence; or inconveniencing sex workers.”

        It is not simply inconveniencing sex workers to call the cops. It is contributing to the cycle of fear and violence.

      • Starchild says:

        Mattymatt – You wrote, “I guess it all comes down to which you think is worse: propositioning, condoms, and violence; or inconveniencing sex workers.”

        “Inconveniencing” someone is a pretty euphemistic way to describe calling the cops on someone and trying to get them arrested, isn’t it?

        I do agree that violence is bad, and that used condoms on the ground are unsightly and unhygienic, and being asked for sex when you do not want it can be annoying. But the fliers in question here did not ask people to call the police based on any of those things. They asked people to call the police based on merely *seeing* a prostitute, manager, or client.

        If we could agree to focus on the individuals actually engaging in problematic behavior rather than stereotyping entire groups of people and prejudging them as guilty en masse for the actions committed by a minority, I think you might find a surprising amount of common ground between civil liberties advocates and people who have “quality of life” concerns.

  13. Megan says:

    Your quote “there is no african-american community of any size in the mission”

    That is not my quote, that is your quote.

    Also your quote “100% of the women walking our blocks come with pimps.” Again, your quote, not mine. Based on your comments, it can be deducted that there are no black women in the mission, and the remainder of the women in the mission “come with pimps.” You also state “i have to assume that these folks are decidedly NOT my neighbors.”

    May I make a suggestion, why don’t you talk to these girls, and try to learn something from them. Have you ever thought if someone else’s actions are offensive to you, that you should inform that person that their actions offend you? Instead, you would rather call the cops on them. How about trying something novel, “communicate.” Calling the police on everything is not the answer. Most of our citizens are reasonable people, and if you go talk to a girl that you “assume” is a prostitute, and inform them of your concerns, they may very well relocate. After all, if someone informs me that something that I am doing offends them, I will gladly take that matter under consideration, and if appropriate, take the corrective action.

    These are real solutions that will create mutual respect in our community. Criminalizing women trying to make a living is not the answer. It only victimizes women.

    Oh, and for the record, you have probably seen me on the news, because, after all, I am routinely called to Sacramento to shed light as an expert on real life figures when it comes to prostitution and human trafficking. I have a reputation of providing a very reasonable, and accurate analysis of the issues. And I do this service without charge.

    So think about what you are doing, and try something that makes a positive change in your community, not criminalizing your neighbors. Just a thought to ponder on.

    • mattymatt says:

      HA HA HA good luck requesting that a pimp “take that matter under consideration, and if appropriate, take the corrective action.”

      • Starchild says:

        Mattymatt – It depends how you approach them. If approached politely and respectfully, people are much more likely to respond in kind.

        I suggest you might pick an appropriate time to approach a sex worker, manager or client (when they don’t appear busy, distracted, etc.), and say something like, “Hi, how’s it going? My name’s Matt, I live here on the block. I just wanted to say, I support your right to be out here making a living/looking for a hookup, but some of us neighbors do have some concerns I was hoping you might be able to help us out with. Most of us are just working stiffs like you, and we hate to be kept awake by shouting and yelling at night, or seeing used condoms on the street when we step out the front door. If you can help us keep this stuff to a minimum, I’d really appreciate it. In return, I promise I’ll respect your rights. I realize that calling the cops on people doesn’t solve anything and only creates conflict and hostility. The only way I would call them is if I see violence.”

        Of course there is a certain amount of mistrust built up that would need to be overcome in some cases, but I think if you appear sincere and respectful, that kind of approach could get some results if practiced consistently over time.

    • foon says:

      Megan, “there is no african-american community of any size in the mission” means that there isn’t one of significant size. “Of any size” is an expression that doesn’t mean exactly what a literal read implies. Zinzin didn’t mean there’s no african american community whatsoever in the Mission; he meant there isn’t one of a size to support what he sees. I can’t vouch for his numbers but the statistics do show that there are very few african americans in the mission, and in the city in general.

  14. Sol says:

    Be nice to prostitutes! Support your local sex workers! Sex worker’s rights are human rights!

    If you are concerned about sex work in your neighborhood you should be getting involved and paying attention to community work that is promoting safer, healthier options for sex workers. Persecuting sex workers (and that is what this is, persecution) only makes things worse across the board.

  15. Rhonda says:

    It’s so easy to become a prostitute when you are an attractive young woman. You get cruised all the time. Too much time. It’s annoying, and much better to learn how to negotiate early on!

    Why not *talk* *to* *the* *prostitutes* We have voices. We have brains, we are human. Don’t make decisions for us, don’t talk badly about us, don’t treat us like helpless victims, and please don’t make any decisions for us. Talk to us instead.

    Why do I get bullied in the street coming and going to and from my daily activities (I work indoors), I don’t know what it is, but men feel like it is A.O.K. to get up in face and tell me what they think of how I look. I agree that there is a lack of respect on the street, but please stop blaming prostitutes for this mess. We are an easy scapegoat to be sure, but I know that we, as a society can do better than that. Blaming a scapegoat for public problems is not going to solve a damn thing.

    • Starchild says:

      Rhonda – Very well put! The sex work rights movement badly needs the voices of thoughtful, articulate sex workers like yourself who aren’t too stigmatized or afraid to be activists. I encourage you to get involved in the fight to stand up for your rights and those of others — if you go to, there is a local SF list to keep updated on stuff happening in the community. Thanks for caring and speaking out!

  16. zinzin says:

    Dear Prostitutes…

    In the interest of an open and respectful dialog, I wonder what you think of the following community-building ideas…

    It would be super if you would toss used condoms into the street, or perhaps recycle them. It seems un-neighborly for you to leave used condoms in the middle of the sidewalk where folks walk and kids play.

    It would also be swell if you wouldn’t use our side yards as your business place. These are private property, after all, and we’re all respectful neighbors here. It’s a little tough to sleep with you doing business right under our bedroom windows. And again, maybe you could clean up all the used condoms. (gosh, business must be great, btw!)

    And also, prostitutes, do you think you could ask your pimp not to wave a gun at us when we peek out the window to see what the fuck is going on in our driveway at 3am? It seems mighty un-neighborly to brandish a firearm among friends, and among community members, doesn’t it? This in itself would be enough – really, we hate to ask for more – but maybe you could ask him to not park the van / hot-sheet-motel in our driveway altogether? i’m sure he’s a great guy, and i’m sure he’d understand if you ask in the right way.

    Another thing that seems like a good idea, something to bring us all together, would be if you could maybe wrap it all up by 3am. This gives you some time to attract the apres-cocktail crowd – lord knows by the way they drive they’re eager customers – so enthusiastic! And after all, the prostitution business is a noisy one, it seems, and as neighbors it would be neighborly to keep the same hours as a bar or club.

    And lastly, do you think you could all wear a particular t-shirt, or an interesting hat? Because this way, the johns that come for your services would know who’s open for business, and who’s just walking along in their neighborhood, not offering sex services. You know, to avoid confusion and those awkward “gee, no, i’m not a prostitute, i’m a 14 year old girl in front of my house talking on the phone” moments that can happen between friends. We promise that underage girls will be doing very identifiable stuff like carrying school books or, you know, walking along with their parents.

    Thank you, prostitutes, for your kind attention to these matters, and for opening a dialog with us. Please let us know your thoughts.

    Your Neighbors.

    • Starchild says:

      Dear Neighbors…

      Your letter is a good start toward an open and respectful dialogue. Although it appears that most if not all of your concerns relate to sex work that occurs on the street, and I am generally an indoors worker myself, I will endeavor to respond to your concerns on behalf of my streetwalking sisters.

      First of all, your request about used condoms seems quite reasonable. I think we should be willing to go one better than what you ask, and deposit used condoms in the trash, rather than on the sidewalk *or* in the street. For your part, you could help facilitate this by organizing neighbors and businesses to put out additional trash receptacles in the areas where this type of littering is a problem.

      Perhaps we could jointly work on fliers to post encouraging people not to litter and to respect the neighborhood, as well as fliers encouraging neighbors to respect the working girls and their clients and managers and not call the cops on them. It seems very un-neighborly to us to call the cops unless someone is engaged in violence or committing a serious property crime like breaking into cars. (I agree that noise, littering, and blocking private driveways is inconsiderate, but I think dialogue, education and mutual respect are better ways to address these lesser problems.)

      And by the way, please refer to our clients as such, and not as “johns” — that is a disrespectful slang term. Likewise, please do not refer to our managers as “pimps.” Those terms should be reserved for people who are engaged in violent or abusive behavior, rather than used as blanket stereotypes to stigmatize the people with whom we work. As you point out, the streets can be dangerous, and those of us who are female especially may desire to have a manager or bodyguard around in case we get into trouble. While many of those individuals are predatory, and those individuals deserve our shared condemnation, this is not true in every case. As with every profession, some of them are good, decent people.

      Although there is the occasional client or worker who enjoys the risk or adventure of outdoor or car sex, most of us would definitely appreciate a safe, convenient place to work indoors. Many of us do not live in places where we can work at home, due to family members, roommates, landlords, or other situations. One thing you could do to help minimize sex work on the streets, in your side yards, and other places where you find it a nuisance would be to convince the motel and hotel owners in your neighborhood to rent rooms by the hour at affordable prices, and to make it easier for businesses of this type to get permits. If we had safe, practical places to take our work inside, you would definitely see less of it. The Japanese institution of “love hotels” represents a good possible model.

      We understand you not liking having guns waved around. The armed cops who drive around looking to arrest us make us feel much the same! I’m sure they’d understand if you ask in the right way.

      As far as our stopping work at 3am, that suggestion is a bit problematic — like people in other on-call jobs, we work when the work is there, which in our trade often happens to be late at night. Like you, we also like to get a good rest after getting off work, and we find that some of you get up at an ungodly hour and disturb our rest with your noisy traffic early in the morning. Maybe you could start your commutes a bit later, like say, 10am? OK, we realize this will seem like an impractical suggestion, but we’re just trying to help you see the issue from our shoes!

      Perhaps we can work out a compromise based on zoning, where 24-hour activity is allowed in commercially zoned areas but restricted in residentially zoned areas?

      Your suggestion that we wear particular t-shirts or something to identify ourselves as sex workers is interesting, but unfortunately impractical. The lesser degree to which we currently distinguish ourselves by attire already leads to our being targeted by police on that basis. Historically, in places where prostitution was legal, of course, we often did wear specific distinctive clothing that would allow clients to identify us, but that won’t be possible until our profession is again decriminalized. We certainly hope you will join us in working toward that community-building goal.

      Thank you, neighbors, for your respectful letter. We still detected a little sarcasm, but it was an improvement over the tone we usually get from people with your concerns, and not bad for a start. We look forward to further dialogue with you.

      Your Neighborhood Sex Workers.

  17. [...] every time you see them” to the San Francisco Police Department, according to our friends at Mission Mission. In case you are not hip to the lingo, a “John” is a prostitute’s paying [...]

  18. Lollipop Gomez says:

    i’m not going to get involved in this conversation because it is seriously disgusting, but the clinic that is for sex workers in the city is called the st james infirmary.

    getting them out of your line of vision and sending people to jail isn’t going to solve the problem, but naturally, that’s not what many of you seem to care about, just that your innocent eyes won’t see a used condom on the street or be awoken at 3am.

  19. Bjorn Toulousse says:

    Seeing sexworkers around makes me think about sex and my wife likes that. SFC should employ the underemployed to pick up the discarded condoms…people work as cum-swabbers at the Lusty Lady….

  20. nickh says:

    zinzin for supervisor d9!

  21. Juanpablo says:

    Zinzin for San Mateo County Supervisor!

  22. Lynae says:

    Dude. It must make people feel so good to report people trying to make a living, just because it happens to conflict with their sleep schedule. If only all the people who aren’t 9-5ers could be so lucky.

    I often WISH I could report all the ambulances that are on the way to the hospital down the street from me, with their sirens on at 4am, or the garbage truck that comes to the yuppie dorm across the street EVERY MORNING at 3:30am, like clockwork. Or the delivery guys that vroom past my house in the wee hours. But then I remember that those people are just trying to make a living, like everybody else, like me, and I grin and bear it. At the end of the day, if I weren’t willing to put up with some noise and inconvenience, I wouldn’t live here.

    (Maybe someone should make some “please bag your condoms” signs? It can’t be that hard.)

  23. nickh says:

    @ Lynae,

    So if I “hit my bitches” to make them turn tricks, pay me, and bag the condoms after they are done, you are cool with me “earning a living”?

    • Lynae says:

      @nickh: Did I ever once say I condoned violence against sex workers, or anyone else, for that matter? Please don’t put words in my mouth.

      Violence should always be reported. Prostitutes, bodyguards/managers and their clients do not necessarily equal violence. I’ve met a lot of prostitutes in my day, and I’ve never met one who had a stereotypical pimp. Not saying they’re not out there, just that I don’t think it’s as common as you apparently do.

  24. zinzin says:

    so here’s a question….

    if the women offering sex services on our blocks are “just trying to make a living”, and it’s true that “ho rights are human rights”, or whatever…if it’s true that this activity should be welcomed, for whatever reason: these women are making a living, they’re needy, they have no choice…whatever….

    what about pimps? are these guys also “just caught up in the game” and do they also deserve a kind “hello” and an offer of help….an open hand? shouldn’t we all be equally concerned with pimp’s rights? are pimp’s rights not human rights?

    what about crack dealers? or heroin dealers? i mean, these guys are just meeting a demand, right? no one is twisting crackie’s arm…or putting a gun to the junkie’s head. no harm done, right? all the hard-drug dealers i know have a really generous spirit…truly, they’re givers. they give. and give.

    what about the dude that climbed on my roof and entered my house through the window of my kid’s room? he’s just “trying to get by” isn’t he? i mean, if he wasn’t poor and needy, he wouldn’t do such a thing. so shouldn’t i welcome him, and give him his choice of my belongings, and a hearty handshake? perhaps he can bunk with the 5 y.o. for a few nights. i mean, he’s needy, right? and that makes him a swell guy, right? perfectly well intentioned…

    someone, please, tell me the difference. or tell me there is no difference.

    tell me something other than

    “i think anyone should be allowed to do whatever they want whenever they want – particularly if i think they’re poor, or needy or disenfranchised in some way – regardless of what anyone else thinks, and regardless of the fall-out, and all rules are made to be broken and all cops are fascists”


    “the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many”


    “i’ll come out in favor of anyone who i see as being ‘persecuted by the man’”

    then maybe i can understand this response in favor of this situation…one which drives a dangerous environment in our community.

    really, i mean it, i want to understand. please, help me.

    • Starchild says:

      Zinzin – People should be free to live their lives as they choose, so long as it does not involve violating someone else’s life, liberty, or justly acquired property.

      When you apply that standard, you will clearly see the difference between someone who is violent and abusive, or someone who breaks into your house, versus someone who is peacefully selling a product (crack, heroin, etc.) or a service (sexual intercourse, blowjobs, etc.) to willing customers.

      If you’d like further details, you might check out the short video that you can view by clicking on my name.

  25. Rhonda says:

    Zin zin, sweetie, you need to read the posts. Angry person you are, and very patronizing. I don’t want to work with you because you don’t really want to work with sex workers, you just want to try to put us in our place, isn’t that right, doll?
    For sure, you have a lot of supporters who also want to scapegoat prostitutes. Good for you, sir! Might makes right? Hmmm?

    • mattymatt says:

      Oh, that’s a shame. Zinzin, you’ll never work with Rhonda in this town again.

    • Mr. Responsibility says:


      Just to take two of the issues that have been raised here:

      ‘Cause it sucks to step on one, have your dog try and eat one, or have your child pick one up–what can be done to keep used condoms off the sidewalk?

      How can we keep Johns from harassing women who aren’t sex workers?

      Please explain whether or not you think these are valid concerns and if so what you think can be done to address them.

      What do you think?


      • Lynae says:

        @Mr. Responsibility: You do realize prostitutes and their clients aren’t the only ones having sex on the streets and leaving condoms behind, right?

        And “johns” aren’t the only ones that harass women or proposition them. Most of the men that have harassed me couldn’t have cared less whether I was actually a hooker or not. Many men just enjoy intimidating women. It’s fucked up but it says more about how men are raised in this culture than it does about streetwalkers.

  26. nickh says:


    Can you clarify for me what it is you want? No judgement here. Is it being able to walk the streets at 3:00AM and not get hassled by cops? Seriously, please enlighten me, I really would like know. Also what is the right way to work with you / engage in a dialog?

  27. born and raised says:

    I think the longer you live in the neighborhood, the more bothersome prostitution in front of your home becomes, especially if you have kids.

    I do not think that supporting the legalization of prostitution and prosecuting prostitution related crimes in the hood are mutually exclusive.

    If you believe that legalized prostitution has a place in society, that fine, but that does not mean that its place its on cap street.

    • zinzin says:

      i’ve written hundreds of words on this blog regarding my support for LEGALIZED (not decriminalized) prostitution.

      i figure that would make everyone happy….make it a legit business, give power to the purveyors…regulate it, tax it, provide benefits and a future (in or out of the biz) to the workers. bring women (mostly…not trying to dis male or tg sex workers) to the fore as the people out front of this. create a true ecosystem of symbiosis – that’s the good kind of ecosystem – where everyone can win.

      but that’s not what most of the folks who are so outraged by this disgusting thread want.

      what they want is special treatment for themselves and the people they think deserve special treatment.

      why should ho’s pay taxes? who are you to tell anyone what to do? if you don’t like it, then leave!

      i’s typical sf “progressive” politics…it’s not about solutions, it’s about rhetoric and dogma and self-advantage…it’s about shutting out opposing views with hysterical and / or judgmental diatribes that follow circular logic….it’s about telling someone “you hate poor people” when they say “gee, i’d rather not have pimps & drug dealers on my block”….it’s about the fetishization of the disenfranchised as a solution for liberal guilt.

      it’s very easy to look at the comments and see that there’s not one single logical reason provided by any commenter regarding why this situation is really OK – other than because they think it’s OK – or what’s a dialog-oriented solution that can take everyone’s needs into account (there is no dialog in “progressive” politics…only monolog).

      the idea that a family community like the mission should tolerate the dangerous environment created by the prostitution trade on capp & shotwell because of some hollow “progressive” dogma is simply ludicrous.

      my kid deserves better, and so do the rest of us.

      • Starchild says:

        Zinzin – You may have heard of the concept of “sin taxes.” One reason many of us do not like the legalization route is because we know that services like ours which are traditionally regarded as “sins” by religious moralists tend to get taxed at outrageous rates, as well as over-regulated. Look at prostitution in the Nevada counties where it is legal; it is not a fair model for us workers. We don’t need government-provided benefits — you can keep your tax money. Just let us keep the money *we* earn, and we can pay for our own health insurance, etc.

      • twinky says:

        You and your neighbors should work together to welcome us. Stop calling the cops on us. Just talk to us. You should provide wastebaskets for the condoms and clean them out every morning. Put some roses out cause some of us really like roses. Also, please provide us a van or RV so we can work quietly in peace. If you had one in front of every house, it would make it a lot quieter except for the generators. You should keep them clean. Our workers like clean places. If you can’t park an RV in front of your house, maybe we can have a room in your house. It will really help us out, especially in during the cold winter rains. Also if there are any girls living on the block who need protection and a steady income, have them call Killer at (415) 553-0123. He’s my manager and hardly ever hits me or steals my money.

      • jimbeam says:

        Here’s the thing:

        We don’t keep “our” tax money. Like all black or grey markets, you get the cash while our ERs, cops, firepeople, social services, etc. serve your needs.

      • Mission Resident says:

        To Twinky: You’re not making any sense, and shouldn’t bother responding.

        To everybody else: We’re talking about prostitutes in the Mission WITH PIMPS,not sex workers in general. Our prostitutes do INDEED come with pimps, are often underaged, and most likely forced into this trade by a MAN. They are driven in, belitted and scremed at, often hit, to make money for the PIMP. And yes, we experience this, first hand.

        Please do your homework. Take a walk in the early morning…around our blocks…not other blocks, but specifically around Capp and 18th and Shotwell and 20th…and experience what we live through, nightly. If you’re a sex worker, you will readily realize that our prostitutes are NOT in the same league in YOU! They do not have the luxury of working from their house. They have to talk the streets and solicit money…not for rent…but for their pimps, or they will have the shit kicked out of them. PLEASE, do your homework before you theorize what we have to LIVE through, every fucking night. We don’t want to compare apples with oranges!

  28. kwk says:

    About ten years ago a Capp St resident, Douglas Chin, tried to run off the prostitution on his block because the police did nothing.

    Douglas Chin used rebar. Douglas Chin was put in jail.

    • zinzin says:

      it’s funny though, if chin was selling crack or his ass, he would have been in & out in a day.

      i guess that means we really should welcome pimps & dealers on our block.

      well, i’m certainly converted.

  29. SFSquee says:

    I can’t believe this is even a debate. If you don’t mind pimps, johns, and prostitutes working their trade on your front step then don’t call the police non-emergency number. Set out some milk and cookies and maybe provide a nice sofa for a better “working environment”.

    As for the block that I live on and what goes on in front of where I live, I’ll make it as difficult as possible for any of this to happen. I’ve got the number on speed dial. I don’t need to grin and bear it and won’t apologize.

    Good luck zinzin!

  30. missiondweller says:

    If I had a five year old and lived on Capp street I would definitely own a gun.

    You’re not alone Zin. We all deserve better.

    • zinzin says:

      ya know, we love our neighborhood. and we love our block.

      90% of our interactions in the hood are positive.

      capp street is funky, and filthy, and fetid at times….but it’s still our home. we chose it.

      that’s why i feel like it’s worth finding a way to improve it.

      i don’t think i need a gun. i think folks in the hood with these type of concerns need a voice.

      the tired, hollow “progressive” voice that’s historically characterized the hood is out of date and non-inclusive. the political machine that perpetuates it is crooked and without a moral compass.

      talk to anyone on Capp street. very few will tell you “yeah, i’m ok with the hookers and dealers”.

      certainly no one (that i know) in the working-class latino community is down with it.

      you really have to dig to find someone that espouses the “pro-ho” views up on here, and generally they’re college educated and decidedly middle class. the majority of them are white. and most of them don’t live on a block with hookers and dealers on it.

      but hey, that’s just my experience. i am sure there’s 10,000 reasons why it’s wrong.

  31. Glenparker says:

    Here’s my solution: next time this shit goes on at three in the morning toss a pack of firecrackers from your roof as close to the prostitute and john as possible then call the cops and report that you have heard gunfire out in the streets.
    You could also toss a lit highway flare or two out into the street.

    • Starchild says:

      I’m sure your neighbors will love the sound of firecrackers going off near their homes at 3am — but I guess you’re not thinking about them, are you?

  32. annaologue says:

    10 or so odd years ago when women were being picked up from my street and murdered – THE COPS DID NOTHING. Not to protect those 13 women, not to protect the women or kids in the neighborhood. The only warnings we got were from the women who worked the streets.

    I have seen violence involving prostitution (and yes even called the cops.) I have been harassed by johns on my street. I do not like either.

    But when it gets down to it quite honestly I’m sick of the COPS racial profiling my friends of color. The cops are not SAFE or EFFECTIVE- and on the ‘local’ tip- the cops aren’t from this neighborhood either.

    - first wave gentrifier

  33. shakeses says:

    I’ve been tearing down every “Call the cops” poster I see. On my street, when yuppies start puking in front of my house, knocking over trash cans and newspaper bins, screaming michael jackson lyrics beneath my window at two in the morning, and if it’s really bothering me, I grudgingly get out of bed, open up the window and let them know that I’m here, I live here, and I’m not going anywhere. I also talk to the bar and restaurant owners to let them know what’s goin’ on, to see if there’s a way we can all curb the nuisance behavior (it ain’t goin’ no where).

    When kids stop to smoke weed in front of the house during the day, I ask them to make sure to bounce if they see any cops, and to throw their orange soda bottles in the trash. Sometimes I kid with ‘em and ask if they mamas know where they at.

    When folks are fighting or yelling in the middle of the road, I’ll gauge the situation, and if it’s safe I’ll even step in and tell people to calm the hell down, offer up a smoke…’Cause I live here. I don’t need cops who know nothing about this place to come in and harass everyone. As a loosely affiliated member of a loosely knit community, I refuse to pretend that I live in a bubble that is sometimes infiltrated by activities I don’t like. So I talk to people. I ask the sex workers around my corner of the mission if they need any water or if they’re all right in general. When I walk by pimps at 3 in the morning, I nod my head and you know what? When you acknowledge people as people and not objects to move out of your way, you get a little respect.

    Sex workers and pimps got you down? Figure out a way to discourage them from doing business in your space without coercion and without cops. If you haven’t figured out how to live in this neighborhood without cops and without fighting, then you ought to move on. This place clearly isn’t for you.
    And as for all of your hysterical rationalizations (sex workers, crack dealers, robbers, murderers all lumped into one), it further proves the point that you live here with a certain set of expectations-cleanliness, morality, lawfulness- that you’d like to shove down everyone’s throats. Your innocent five year old will not be forever traumatized by the sight of a condom, and if it’s bugging you, turn your crusade into action. Put on some rubber gloves and get a trash bag. I do it on my street. No cops, no mess, no pimps waving guns in at me.

    You’re never gonna get john’s to stop throwing their condoms on the ground, and you’re not gonna get them to stop cruising whomever they want. You’re not gonna end illicit sex work (unless you throw your zealousness into decriminalizing it). You’re not gonna end crime in the city, much less the mission by making expensive sticker-posters (clearly you don’t know flier guy who tears everything down between 24th and Haight street).

    You’re especially not gonna change a thing by posting sarcastic rants on the internet. Neither am I, for that matter.

    Seek another resolution to your ‘problem’. No cops. No violence.

    Welcome to the neighborhood.

    • Starchild says:

      Shakeses – It’s good to know that there are calm, tolerant people like yourself living in the hood. Thank you for your respectful, non-coercive approach to issues that come up where you live. Perhaps I’m more idealistic than you are, but I think it is possible to minimize the used condom problem. People wouldn’t throw them on the floor of the Louvre Museum, would they? Part of it is making the areas outside your homes look cared for. I realize that’s difficult in part because of the laws that limit the ability of renters to get trees planted, laws against sidewalk art, etc., as well as of course overcoming a culture of neglect and disrespect takes time, but I think it can be done. One thing to start would be to recognize the dignity of clients of prostitutes, by referring to them as “clients” rather than the disrespectful “johns.” Put out signs showing you respect them, and they’ll be more likely to respect your space and not litter.

      • shakeses says:

        good point on the condoms starchild. thanks for the over-all calm you’ve brought to this heated page!

      • zinzin says:

        i am absolutely flabbergasted by this post. for the first time – maybe in my entire life – i am speechless.

        i need to go lay down.

  34. Mike says:

    I will also tear down any call the cops fliers I see. Calling the cops will do nothing “positive.” Maybe it will move the traffic to a different neighborhood. Hardly positive. Try some outreach, some patience, and some dignity. These are long-term solutions that require thought and cooperation as opposed to reaction and incarceration.

    • shakeses says:

      Word up Mike. Word up.

    • fsharp says:

      We WANT the prostitutes to move on. We WILL call the cops. We don’t want this business in our neighborhood. This is a family area. So take the business out to non-residential areas and let it thrive. In countries where prostitution is legal, they still don’t run the business in family neighborhoods.

    • Megan says:

      It appears that zin zin, john, or what ever his name is today, is advocating violence against women. After all, calling the cops on women so that they can be arrested and abused by the police, then thrown in a jail to be abused again, is an outright attempt to encourage violence against women. I suggest that we all go down there, and organize on 19th and Capp, then walk the two blocks to his home, and protest his home. Maybe zin zin needs a wake up call that advocating violence against women is not going to be acceptable under any circumstance.

      I am trying to figure out when would be the most effective time to protest his house (and maybe flier it too as he is littering our neighborhood with his filth.) He complains about the garbage left by pimps, johns, and prostitutes, yet he is littering our neighborhood (and the internet) with his fliers that advocate violence against women. We all should take a stand, show him that true patriots do not spy on and snitch neighbors, nor do they advocate for violence against other persons.

      Lets shut him up once and for all!!

      • nickh says:

        Are you serious Megan? How is reporting prostitution advocating violence against women? Please explain. In fact please come to the next neighborhood watch meeting so you can explain in person.

      • Megan says:

        Nickh: Are you serious to think that calling the police on women trying to earn a living, only to have them violently removed (arrest, handcuffs, the forceful removal to a jail, strip searches, violence by other prisoners) is not violence?

        Seriously, get real. Go through that process, and then come back here to report how you think you weren’t subject to violence. A trip to jail would be a wake up call for you!!

      • nickh says:

        Megan, are you serious to think that the women who are soliciting for sex walking the streets in the mission aren’t regularly subjected to violence by their pimps?
        Also, if I do something illegal then I would expect to get cuffed, searched, and put in jail, that is kind of how it works.

      • Starchild says:

        nickh – Your comment, “If I do something illegal then I would expect to get cuffed, searched, and put in jail, that is kind of how it works” sounds rather fatalistic.

        You might just as well say, “If I move to the Mission then I would expect to experience street crime, litter, and late-night drunken rowdies, that is kind of how it works.”

        Or, “If I work the streets as a young female, then I would expect to get harassed, abused, beaten up, and arrested, that is kind of how it works.”

        Shouldn’t we focus on trying to make things better, rather than talking as if bad laws, violence against others, etc., are set in stone and cannot be changed?

      • fsharp says:

        fsharp here. I don’t know zinzin, though I would like to. I am an Inner Mission neighbor. Leave zinzin alone and stop with the personal threats. No one has advocated violence against you. We simply don’t want prostitution going on in our neighborhood because we are trying to raise families here. Walking out on the street alone at 3AM to talk to the managers is far too dangerous for us. That’s why we leave it to the cops. If the cops are rough with you, take it up with Theresa Sparks and the Police Commission. They will work with you. We don’t want anyone roughed up. We just want a safe place to raise our kids in an un-harrased environment. If the prostitution business would just move to a non-residential area, this whole thing could be solved once and for all. That’s the way it’s been done for thousands of years.
        You could even put up signs of your own in our neighborhood pointing your customers to the new area of business.

      • Megan says:

        Hi Fsharp. Thank you for your concerns. I appreciate that prostitution is a concern in the neighborhood, and my comments are not intended as a threat. I do not advocate violence, and in fact abhor it. I do encourage legitimate political action, and picketing someone whom advocates violence – even if picketing them at their residence – is a valid and proven method to shed light on extremists like zin zin.

        But calling the cops on women who are trying to earn a living, in order to have them arrested, is in fact violence. I do not like the fact of pimps anymore than the next person, and especially do not like any person whom is abusive. Abusive persons should be put away, but arresting the women is simply wrong. If someone you think is a pimp brandishes a weapon, that should be reported. Concealable firearms are a crime, and mere possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime (ie pimping) carries a mandatory 10 year sentence. If the alleged pimp brandishes the firearm, then the sentence gets increased to 20 years. That is the law. Call the cops and tell them there is a pimp brandishing or threatening you with a firearm, and the cops will be there in a hot second.

        But calling the cops on the girls is wrong. Relocating prostitution is not an answer. However, decriminalizing the trade, or even legalizing the trade, will free most women from abusive pimps, and they will be able to work from the safety of their homes. The fact is that by making the prostitution trade illegal, it forces women to seek the perceived safety of pimps. Unfortunately, most pimps are not looking out for the benefit of the women under them.

        If you truly want to clean up our neighborhood, then I encourage you to fight for decriminalization during this next election when it will be put to San Francisco voters again. This time, it will not be led by fanatics like Maxine Dugan. When decrim is approved by the voters, you will see former street workers leaving the streets and instead working from their homes.

        San Francisco has a deep sex positive history of prostitution, and some of the earliest pioneers of our city were sex workers. Fight for what is right, not for arresting and victimizing women.

  35. Starchild says:

    fsharp – You suggest moving the prostitution business to a non-residential area. While I must say I disagree with your apparent premises that prostitution itself is dangerous — that’s a result of government criminalizing the sex trade — or that it causes significant harassment of children, I think your suggestion is nevertheless a potentially constructive one.

    For it to be of real value in this debate however, a second and more difficult step is needed, and that is for neighbors like yourself to go beyond simply saying “Not in my backyard” and get behind a proposed alternative location for prostitution to take place. It’s easy to just say “Not here!” but that is a non-starter for sex workers and our supporters unless an answer to the question “Then where?” is on the table, and you are willing to join us in the hard political fight to make that alternate “where” a reality.

    Criteria for a red light or streetwalking district should include (1) somewhere centrally located and easily accessible by transit, (2) close to low income housing where sex workers live, and (3) with a relatively high level of pedestrian traffic. If a location does not possess these attributes, it will probably not succeed in attracting sex workers away from current streetwalking areas that do.

    People who engage in NIMBYism without proposing specific, realistic alternative locations for the businesses/activities/development/etc. they want to keep out of their neighborhood are being no more responsible than the politicians who propose to spend money without engaging in the politically more difficult task of saying precisely where that money is going to come from.

    I welcome your thoughts on where a red light district could be located, and your efforts to get a consensus on this among your neighbors.

    • confused says:

      perhaps i have this wrong…so hopefully some of you could educate me…

      i believe there is a difference between a sex worker (working from home) and the prostitutes in the mission. the prostitutes in the mission are young, provocatively dressed (barely), and dropped off in carloads by the pimps. they DEFINITELY do not live here. the pimps later find a parking space and wander around the hood making sure their hos are agressively soliciting. by all means, it is not a SAFE environment…for the workers or for the neighborhood.

      sex workers (that work from home) do not concentrate in one neighborhood, are not in the cold loney streets, are not harrassed by a pimp, and may say NO to a customer.

      & once again, why on our blocks? there’s a beautiful park in pacific heights! noe valley is pretty cool? why here??

      • Lynae says:

        @confused: I used to live in Pac Heights. There’s lots of streetwalkers there too. While walking home to Octavia and California at night, I had someone pull over and aggressively proposition me on 6 different occasions over a 6 month period. I haven’t ONCE had that happen in the 2 years I’ve lived in the Mission, despite the fact that I go for late night walks all the time.

  36. Concerned Resident says:

    How dare some people say that calling the cops is an invasion of privacy and victimization of the women prostitutes? Has anyone experienced the way these pimps treat these women? We have. Numerous times we have had to call 911 to get them help before they get hurt by their abusive pimps. Plus, we have to deal with the constant loud verbal abuse these women get in the middle of the nigh. Who is really victimizing the women, the pimps or residents wanting to have a peaceful life in the hood? Plus, how do you explain to a child why these women walk the streets and stand in front of our house flagging cars as they go by? Who wants to walk out of the house and catch people having sex under the stairs? And, who wants to pick up used condoms from the sidewalk almost on a daily basis?

    • Megan says:

      How dare you suggest that it is okay to call the cops on the woman being victimized by the pimp. Let me get this right. If a pimp abuses the girl, you are gonna call the cops on the victim of this abuse. What kind of delusional state are you in. What next, a thief steals merchandise from a store, and call the cops on the store owner? You call the cops on whoever is doing the abuse, not the victim.

      What do you mean how do you explain the prostitutes to your kids. I would tell my children the truth (your children are gonna learn something either way-they are not as dumb as you lead your readers to believe – isn’t it better you tell them the truth, rather than they get false or misleading information from the kids on the playground?) Let us not forget that we were all children at one point, and we “learned” many things about sex, and sexuality on the playground (most of which was stereotypes and uninformed information).

      No one wants to walk out of their homes and find people having sex “under the stairs” and that is in fact trespassing. If you have trespassers, then you order them to leave – if they don’t you call the cops. Plain and simple. But it sounds like to me that you are in fact spineless, and will not do such a thing. You would rather call the cops on the girls to have them thrown in jail. Here is something to think about, when a prostitute goes to jail, she will be released eventually (unless of course your call led to her being killed in jail – which happens often). When they are released, guess what – they probably lost their home, residence because in jail it is really, really difficult to pay the bills. So the girl has no where to go, no place to live, and guess who is waiting at the bus station for her? A pimp of course, and with no where else to go, she ends up with a pimp, and back in front of your home even more desperate than before. Think about the consequences of your actions.

      Of course you had to come up with some generic handle “concerned resident” when you don’t even live in the neighborhood.

      If you see a girl being abused, take a photo and call the cops on the abuser, not the pimp. If you are confused as to how to speak honestly to your children, I strongly suggest that you find, and participate in a parenting class. You children will never have any respect for you if you are not willing to speak honestly to them.

      • Megan says:

        That last paragraph should read:

        “If you see a girl being abused, take a photo and call the cops on the abuser, not the victim. If you are confused as to how to speak honestly to your children, I strongly suggest that you find, and participate in a parenting class. You children will never have any respect for you if you are not willing to speak honestly to them.”

      • Concerned Resident says:

        You make me laugh with your antics…LOL

      • nickh says:

        “(unless of course your call led to her being killed in jail – which happens often)”
        What are your stats and source for this?

        “they probably lost their home, residence because in jail it is really, really difficult to pay the bills”
        So after asking the SFPD how long prostitutes stay in jail, the answer is about a maximum of 24 hours, usually less and strictly speaking it is not jail, it usually a lockup while they are booked, then let go. Prostitution is rarely if ever prosecuted by the DA in SF.

        “If you see a girl being abused, take a photo and call the cops on the abuser, not the pimp.”
        Why can’t the prostitute do this? I mean she is the victim here, right?

        ” If you are confused as to how to speak honestly to your children, I strongly suggest that you find, and participate in a parenting class. You children will never have any respect for you if you are not willing to speak honestly to them.”

        None of the parenting classes on raising kids address I have attended cover “talking to your kids about prostitution”. There is no activity at parks and recs or after school program that covers it either. How do you “honestly” tell a 3 year old about the condom he almost steps on after you pull him away and asks what it is. While clearly you aren’t a parent I’d be interested in seeing how your outlook changes if you ever have kids.

  37. mission resident says:

    these are my experiences living in the mission:

    on more than one occasion, i have, PERSONALLY, seen six to eight young girls get out of a spanking brand new SUV…and they immediately started walking different directions in the mission to get to work. btw, for those of us that have been here for a while, we could distinguish them between the bridge and tunnel club girls vs. the prostitutes…not only by the way they’re dressed, but by their mannerisms.

    we were able to identify a prostitute as a minor, barely in high school. and yes, she had a pimp. there are some teenagers in the neighborhood that knew her.

    i have, PERSONALLY, seen a prostitute get punched in her face, by her pimp. how do we know he’s the pimp?? as he was punching, he was screaming “get back to work bitch”.

    i have, PERSONALLY, seen a prostitute give oral copulation in public, on South Van Ness.

    i have spoken to some of these girls. in a nutshell, they say “fuck you…get out of my way before i get in trouble…i’m not here to socialize.

    For those that have not experienced the prostitute/pimp/john issues the have been plaguing our neighborhood, i suggest you take a walk, between the hours of 2 a.m. and 4:30 a.m., preferrably on a saturday or sunday morning…and circle around the blocks of cap and 19th and shotwell and 20th before you make any judgements.

    legalizing prostitution is “right-on”…but not in a neighborhood of families. there are lots of non-residential blocks in the mission…why not there?

  38. missioner says:

    Doesn’t the fact that, whether you like it or not, prostitution is illegal make you think that “may be” pimps and johns and hos” should be considered in the same way as anybody else involved in any illegal activity? (That is, for you who are a little slow following logic, subjected by the punishment stipulated under this country’s law.)

    May be you as a ho should expect some police interaction if you are ‘doing business’ in the mission.
    I can’t see how calling the cops on a beaten whore is victimizing her. In any case, it prevents the pimp to continuing the beating, expose him as a pimp, (remember: he’s committing a crime by pimping) get help for the abused ho, expose her (she’s also committing a crime) and luckily, exposing the john (who’s also engaged in an illegal activity) so in the future they will know better where to conduct their business. That is if they are not smart enough to realize that there are myriad other ways to earn a living that are not a risk to your health, your body, your self respect and so forth.
    It is a victimization of the abused when you propose that home owners should pick up used condoms your johns toss on the sidewalk. Or try to negotiate with people in your ‘industry’ so you can use their yards, stairs, etc to prostitution. Instead of that they chose to try and exercise their civic duty and call the police to put in effect the current laws. You should embrace their way of acting and call your representatives and make them understand what you need and want. Then, if a law is passed making prostitution legal, you should have all the apparatus to support you and your business. In the meantime try to keep the lowest profile when conducting your business as burglars, thieves and other criminals had learned to do for self preservation.

  39. mission resident says:

    …the fact of the matter is…most of the prostitutes in the mission DO NOT get arrested. this is a fact…unless the officers witness the prostitutes solicitating business (e.g. verbally offer a service for a fee). MOST OF THE TIME, the officers ask the prostitutes if they belong in the neighborhood, and if not, to LEAVE…and if they see they again, they will ARREST them.

    get your stories straight…

    • Mission Resident says:

      to skakeses – i believe you’re wrong. stand on the corner of 20th & shotwell, between the hours of 2-4 am, on saturday or sunday morning. Plug your ears & you’ll see all the action. close your eyes and you’ll hear all the noise. close your eyes & plug your ears, & you’ll be knocked over by pimps.

      check it out…then write back!!

  40. blah blah says:

    What a bunch of cry babies. Prostitution in the Mission is miniscule compared to what is was 15-20 years ago. At that time there could be a hundred or more hookers between 20th-16th on Capp and more on SVN on any given Saturday night.

    Ultimately the issue comes down to quality of life. You chose to live in a rough area. Deal with it. If you don’t like it move to NV or PH or GP.

    That said.. the City needs an official red light district. It is a waste of LE $ to go after hookers and a potentially huge windfall of $$$ to implement a reasonable taxation plan. It would be safer for everyone involved and would eliminate the quality of life problems.

    • Mission Resident says:

      hey blah blah blah…you are wrong. i’ve lived in the mission for over 20 years…and hung out in the mission prior to that.

      the former prostitutes 20 years ago were a bunch of individual crack-heads. one only went to the mission to scrape the bottom of the barrel for sex. it’s totally different now. they’re young (most are 15+ years old), and have pimps that could probably kick both of our asses (& wouldn’t hesitate to shoot a bullet through our heads if we got in their way).

      so you’re right…i choose to live in the neighborhood w/the best weather in sf, knowing there would be some harmless ho’s here & there. now the pimps are taking over…

      i don’t think anybody realizes the severity of this issue unless you’re in the hood between 2ish and 4ish in the morning…

  41. Mission Resident says:

    to skakeses – i believe you’re wrong. stand on the corner of 20th & shotwell, between the hours of 2-4 am, on saturday or sunday morning. Plug your ears & you’ll see all the action. close your eyes and you’ll hear all the noise. close your eyes & plug your ears, & you’ll be knocked over by pimps.

    check it out…then write back!!

    • shakeses says:

      Mission Resident,

      I appreciate that your experience is your own, and I’m not going to try to discount the fact that this is something that really vexes you. I’ve lived in the neighborhood forever and have seen some practices that make the stomach turn and the heart ache -you think Capp street is bad, go hang out on Julian during the day. I believe there are very few things in this neighborhood that require calling the ineffective and out of touch police department and I simply disagree that sex work is one of those things. Unfortunately for you, you live in a neighborhood where sex-work occurs (albeit not under the safest conditions). I maintain as I said earlier, that when neighbors make active overtures to people whom are otherwise deemed to be a nuisance, that nuisance usually becomes an ally. Recently one of the coolest things to happen to me in a very long time was at about 3 in the morning, I was being harassed by people I’ll call jocks when a person who spare changes around a lot emerged from behind a car, scared the jocks away from me and walked me home. On Capp street a few years ago, I was approached by a guy who mistakenly thought I wanted to felate him and he was very persistent. This lady and her manager chased him off the block and offered me a cigarette and walked me half-way home. They recognized me from before. I still run into ‘em from time to time, and we still give each other the what’s up.

      I don’t believe in absolutes. Not all sex-workers and managers and clients are rosy bright eyed neighborly optimists, nor are they all leacherous vultures conspiring to tear down someone’s idea of what a neighborhood should look like. I have spent the wee hours on Capp street (I’m a night person, you’ve probably seen me reading on your stoop at 4 am, and probably thought I was “some bum drinking beer”). Have you ever tried to have a conversation with the people who are bothering you?
      Just some of my thoughts.

  42. Jay says:

    I’m glad I live in the Tenderloin.

  43. Beznik says:

    I have a certain respect for prostitutes. They provide a service for money. I was a john once. It was in a hotel

  44. Tyler says:

    A Johns perspective(read it before just deciding to hate me)I have a certain respect for prostitutes they provide a service for money, usually because they have to to make ends meet. Lots of people do things that are unpleasant to make money. Point is they don’t steal or lie generally or pose a threat to the public, and they don’t force customers to do anything. I am not currently a John by the way It was a long time ago and it was in a hotel room and done discreetly, so my comment to Johns that pick up street hookers and do those things in neighborhoods where people live is have some class. As for pimps they are the scum of the Earth, parasites. The old fashioned model of gender roles was a man brings in money the women cooks cleans and provides emotional support in exchange for sustenance from him. The pimp lives off of the income of the prostitute and what do the women get in return from the pimp? Beaten and abused. Our old gender role system was sexist but symbiotic The pimp is just a parasite and a thief who preys on the vulnerable, so why is the word pimp cool while women who do sex work are called hos or sluts, pimp being a compliment ho being a insult, thats messed up. For all of you that hate me now for my crime, hey just keepin it real a lot more guys have done this at least once than you think. I mean some guys will try to go to a bar or a party and take advantage of a drunk girl or perhaps fool a sober girl into thinking he wants a real relationship only to use her for sex and dump her. Tis that better than meeting a woman for an honest and up front transaction of sex for money while being a polite customer and doing it in a private locale? I was single at the time and feeling desperate, this blew off some steam so I could be more calm relaxed and not desperate acting around women. Also food for thought, women visit prostitutes too.